The Christmas Classic - C-Tier - 12-13-08 [Archive]

Thomas M

11-18-2008, 11:14 PM

Yes.. figured more people would want to play GW. I've had a few out of towners request it.

I am continuously amazed by the volume of people who prefer GW over Truss for a competitive venue. I meet people from Mobile to Huntsville who love it. Its a fun and social course but you can play it for 5 years and it not elevate your game much. Let me stir this up some..............

Who plays GW for the challenge expecting it will improve your game?

Who plays for the social scene?

And no sissy fence riding.

I played it for the social scene. It was generally more appealing for me to play with the DGB community than alone on a more challenging course (Tville).

Justin/Jebb as this has nothing to do with the Christmas Classic this may not be the place for my question. Move it, kill it whatever. T

Jebb

11-19-2008, 12:39 AM

Fair question, but on Dec 13th it will be cold ;) I'd play either course, but GW might be a little more 'fun' for the weather conditions. Plus I live 2 blocks away :p

fitZwater

11-19-2008, 07:04 AM

All i know is no matter where im at, everytime i throw a disc it improves my game. I also think that it will come down to location with GW too. A lot more people live closer to GW I believe. On a personal note, george ward is more appealing to the eye and its "difficulty" makes for much more competitive play for tournaments. maybe have advanced and up play the same tournament in a different location?

JayWood

11-19-2008, 07:07 AM

I agree with you Thomas. Even though my only Pro victory came at GDub, I'd much rather play a tournament in Trussville. It challenges my game more, and I think it brings the better players to the top. I hate to see Trussville lose one of its tournaments, but I will be there regardless, and I'm sure it will be great either way.

Hilltopper

11-19-2008, 07:50 AM

I play GW because I like the course and because it is in a conveniant location. I don't play any course to improve my game. Every course offers an opportunity to improve your play. Brahan, for instance, which is much hated by "game improvers" will make you an excellent trouble putter.

I guess that was kind of sitting on the fence. So of the two options, I would pick to improve my game. Mainly because I really only play with Marla anywhere I go.

Josh

IndyJonez

11-19-2008, 08:11 AM

I live 2 miles from GW so obviously its all about convenience for me.

But if it were inTrussville I'd drive out there to play in the tournament with no fuss.

As far as everyday play, again convenience is key for me. I'm not realy into the social aspect of it because 90% of the time I'm trying to rush a quick 9 or if I have a couple hours to kill I can commit to 18 and if lucky 24.

But anyways, I enjoy playing Trussville when my schedule permits. That's all.

:)

scraps

11-19-2008, 01:30 PM

I play for the challenge but like Josh said, every course offers an opportunity to improve your game. But I would always prefer to play gw over Trussville. Aside from the convenience of it (8 blocks away) I would much rather play a course where I can shoot 8 or 10 over in tournament set-up than a course where I'm lucky to come out under 20+ (and without yellowjacket stings). Plus, for me, Trussville is a very pretty course. GW is home.

Looking forward to the Classic. Hopefully I won't freeze my butt off.

"Tiger"

11-19-2008, 01:42 PM

Yes, every course has its good points and bad points. Like Ralph I two live about 8 blocks away from GW so I play it 90% of the time during the year thanks to time and money constraints. But unlike Ralph I like courses where shooting par is considered a good score. Even for me I think trussville could be a better course. I like distance. I like having to think about my tee shot AND my approach shot. But thats just me.

For a C Tier event I have no problem with a tournament being at GW (really any level tournament). It all depends on which players you're catering to in the event, popular consensus of the course local AND locals would like to play and the setup of that course. You can make the scoring at GW just as tough as you can at Trussville.

The only real complaint you can make for not using Trussville is that it does always seem like pulling teeth to try and get an event out there thats not an A tier, etc. If nothing else holding an event out at Trussville catered to Ams would at least introduce the course to those players. But as I've always said, the TD makes the decision. As players we play.

Jebb

11-19-2008, 03:18 PM

TD makes the decisions.
Gospel.

ChrisP.

11-19-2008, 04:20 PM

Gospel.;)

I'm here to please you guys (the players). I'll hold an event wherever you want one. (which is why I decided GW).

Jebb, can you make an anonymous poll about the courses for the Christmas Classic? We'll see how it comes out.

Jebb

11-19-2008, 04:41 PM

you should have rights for posting polls, especially in the 'DGB Chat' forum :) I'll let you do this one

drdisc

11-19-2008, 04:48 PM

One thing to consider is who makes up the majority of players. Do you set up the course for them or a minority?

"Tiger"

11-19-2008, 06:10 PM

One thing to consider is who makes up the majority of players. Do you set up the course for them or a minority?

TD decision. And if you want to expand the sport and bring in better players (out of towners) sometimes you have to bite the bullet and go with the "minority"/pros. I don't see this event as one of those.

What I hear from the pros outside of Alabama, and not your 950 pros, I'm talking your 1000 rated pros, that have played here is "I like GW, its a fun course, but I think Trussville is the better, more challenging course. Let me know the next time you have an event at that course".

Thomas M

11-19-2008, 10:02 PM

I want to be clear that my question was not to start a discussion about where to play this tourney. I dont even live in Bham anymore.

My point was to find out if people played GW as "Practice" (as in making effort to get better) most days or more socially, talking full time. Because if its for practice I think playing T'ville is much better training, so why dont more people make the trip to Tville. The overiding answer looks to be convenience. Lots of ya'll live so close to the course its no question.

Chris sorry for inadvertantly starting this up about your tourney, my "stirring things up" comment just ment the posters here in general. Everyone should just say thanks to you for putting it on.

ChrisP.

11-19-2008, 11:44 PM

No worries! I think it's a healthy discussion.

ChrisP.

11-20-2008, 10:35 AM

you should have rights for posting polls, especially in the 'DGB Chat' forum :) I'll let you do this one

But.....I wanted it on the front page.:p

There is now a poll in the DGB chat to take an opinion of the MB users.

Click Here. (http://www.discgolfbirmingham.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1854)

Jebb

11-20-2008, 11:37 AM

The newest poll always shows on the homepage no matter who posts it ;)

ChrisP.

11-20-2008, 12:58 PM

JEBB.........I love you MAN!! I didn't know that, that's AWESOME!

Jebb

11-21-2008, 10:31 AM

while we're at it, probably a good time to explain the green usernames. Not a forum error, these people with the green names are full DGB members.

Cotton Pickin' Bill

11-21-2008, 10:46 AM

What I hear from the pros outside of Alabama, and not your 950 pros, I'm talking your 1000 rated pros, that have played here is "I like GW, its a fun course, but I think Trussville is the better, more challenging course. Let me know the next time you have an event at that course".

There are several low 900 rated players up this way that when they travel they like to go to more challenging courses.

I would rather play Trussville, but I will not miss any Saturday tournies at either course.

"Tiger"

11-21-2008, 01:18 PM

yeah I know lower rated players like playing challenging courses as well. I've always enjoyed playing tougher courses, even when I first start playing. I'm just of the opinion that a course that makes you work harder for par is better than one that makes you work hard for birdies. There's just no danger at GW whereas nearly every whole at Trussville forces you to get into the fairway or you're going to have a tough second or third shot. But thats more personal opinion. Everyone likes getting birdies, so I can understand the enormous appeal of GW. And like yourself, assuming the weather is right ;), I'll play a tourny at trussville or GW.

Jebb

11-21-2008, 01:21 PM

damn, you had to kill the potential for ribbing by adding the weather disclaimer ;)

I saw in a crystal ball that you would hit your first ace when it was less than 40 degrees outside :D

ChrisP.

11-21-2008, 01:35 PM

Jeremy, don't forget, GW plays a little tougher and forces more accurate shots to score well with the sidewalk O.B.s now.

"Tiger"

11-21-2008, 02:34 PM

yeah, you can make GW tougher with ropes and OB, especially with the sidewalks and making the course longer. I just meant form a standpoint of the actual course design. Fewer trees and natural OB just makes it harder to get into trouble at GW. Clearly I don't think its a bad place. I play there 90% of the time ;)

selwonk nitsuj

11-23-2008, 11:41 AM

How about...
1long (by rocks)
2middle (by tree)
3left
4right (under tree)
5middle
6left (on hill)
7left
8right (long)
9short
10 (long right)
11middle (short in woods)
12 long
13short (left of creek)
14long (far back right)
15long right
16 far left??
17 far left
18 long middle

THAT SOUNDS LIKE FUN!!! YAY!
i'LL MOVE THEM TODAY WITH THE GO AHEAD :D:D:D:confused:

"Tiger"

11-23-2008, 11:46 AM

I like that setup, even with the little dinker for 13 ;)

Tim k

11-23-2008, 04:32 PM

let the pros play:

4 with the tee pad extended back where it was used to be, back by the oak tree useing the walking path for the tee. That was a great shot back in the day!

5 long

and 13 long

"Tiger"

11-23-2008, 04:49 PM

thats true. There's no rule that says every division has to play from the same pads or to the same baskets.

james blanchard

11-23-2008, 05:38 PM

That would include advance also, and that sounds good. So Chris, is their a set decision on the course or courses to be played? Also we have a couple out of towners coming in, maybe hit them up and let them know of our thread and see what they think.

charles plumber

11-23-2008, 06:17 PM

is the bunker rule in effect for all tourneys at gw??? i thought that was one time thing. destroyed my score in autumn open.

selwonk nitsuj

11-23-2008, 07:28 PM

yes 13 long for the tourney but short for casual play would be fun.. Whatcha think'n chris??

Jebb

11-23-2008, 09:59 PM

All you guys with the great ideas should put in the work to become TDs!!!

drdisc

11-23-2008, 10:17 PM

That long tee pad for # 4, that was taken out, almost got the course pulled a few years ago. Not everyone has a perfect tee shot.

Rondpitt

11-23-2008, 11:42 PM

That long tee pad for # 4, that was taken out, almost got the course pulled a few years ago. Not everyone has a perfect tee shot.

Yah-up. Tim and Tom are both right. 4 in the WayBackOld position was an awesome shot.

And one too many discs hit the BFD's personal trucks inside the fence. Major stink.

Shooting from that position is playing with fire. Oops, I made a funny.

Ron

selwonk nitsuj

11-24-2008, 07:49 AM

Jebb, what's the difference in a dgb member and a (Full) dgb member?

"Tiger"

11-24-2008, 07:57 AM

unless I'm mistaken both TK and I said pros could play from longer tee pads, am I'm pretty sure anyone who considers himself/herself a pro should be able to avoid the fire station from that or any tee pad. I agree you shouldn't make ams play from that far back. Same thing with playing to 5 long, 13 long or any other long shot. Pros are going to hit the fairways and be much more accurate in general. If you think about it the only reason for having "pro pads" vs "am pads" is to give more skilled players a challenge and not make less skilled players feel inadequate. I get sick and tired of hearing complaints about long setups vs short setups during tournaments, we have different tee pads for a reason, lets use them. We're quick to add short tee pads to help out am players yet for some reason we hesitate to extend tee pads for pros.

And Jebb, just cause we don't want to be TDs doesn't mean we can't help the club (or in mine and TKs instance our sponsor) come with ideas to run a great tourny that pleases everyone.

Cotton Pickin' Bill

11-24-2008, 08:55 AM

Please include Advanced in the Pro setup.

Tim k

11-24-2008, 09:20 AM

if you want to play pro set up PLAY PRO!

Like Drake said and i said, Pro's only from the long setup, any halfass pro shouldn't put one in the fire dept. parking lot, if you do, you shouln't be playing pro in my opinion.

"Tiger"

11-24-2008, 09:44 AM

Yeah, I'm sorry Bill but I'm going to have to side with TK in saying that all ams should be playing from amateur tees. In ball golf only the pros play from the blacks. Everyone else usually plays from the shorter tees based on level (Am, Ladies, Juniors, etc). Otherwise there's no reason to make a distinction between divisions. If you're going to play the same setup (when alternate setups are available) then you should compete in the same division for the same prize. Especially with the new ratings system that has essentially lowered the levels to meet each division you have lower rated players in advanced which by definition means they can't compete with pros. So they shouldn't be playing from pro tees.

Granted not every disc golf course has alternate tees and pin placements, but for those that do you need to make a separation of pro and am. You can even add shorter/easier tees for even lower division (ie for whole 13, maybe you keep the short basket to the right. Pros play the normal long pin setup. Advanced plays the normal short setup. Everyone else tees from the new walking trail closer to the creek. Just an idea). It encourages you to step up your game and take that chance.

I know I'm stepping on toes when I say this but if you don't want to play from the am tees, play pro and prove to yourself you shouldn't be playing from shorter tees.

Jebb

11-24-2008, 10:01 AM

You could always play from where the TD decides and to the pins he's decided upon before trying to do it for him http://www.discgolfbirmingham.com/forums/images/icons/icon3.gif

Seriously, control of a tourney is only a 25-question open-book test away!

"Tiger"

11-24-2008, 10:22 AM

Do you just choose not to read posts? There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving suggestions for a tournament setup especially when the TD has said that he is open to suggestions and wants to make the most players happy. And as I've said numerous times the TDs final word is the TDs final word and I respect that. Considering he just changed the tournament location only a couple weeks ago from Trussville to GW shows he's open to change based on player input. And on top of that this has evolved into a discussion more about tournament setups in general and not just for this specific tournament.

Bottom line is have an open mind and be willing to adapt and hear criticism. If you don't like them, don't read them and don't get mad when other people give them.

Jebb

11-24-2008, 10:45 AM

True Jeremy, but it really seems more like this discussion has gone way past suggestion directly into assumption on how it will be laid out and played.

I'm sure ChrisP has an idea of how he wants to run this one (as with all others).

ChrisP.

11-24-2008, 11:37 AM

Wow! Great discussion guys! Ron....I heard a little rimshot in my head when I read the "playing with fire" comment. ;-)

I appreciate all of the feedback on the courses and the set-ups people desire. It helps us run better events.

The "original" plan was to change venues at the Christmas Classic. If you'll notice on the PDGA Tourney page it says B'ham & Trussville. I changed my mind on doing that from an ease of management standpoint and I assumed that most would want to play 2 rounds at GW.

Based on the Poll #'s Two rounds at Trussville has the most votes and the Both courses option is tied with 2 rounds at GW. That's way too many votes to NOT have T'ville involved. Don't ya think?

Jebb

11-24-2008, 11:45 AM

at least you have a few of us who now know how the van jigsaw puzzle fits together :)

ChrisP.

11-24-2008, 01:43 PM

Yeah! Thanks for your help! I should send Honda a time-lapse video of all of our stuff collapsing and eventually all fitting into the (disc golf) Odyssey.

Sometimes it still amazes me!

Cotton Pickin' Bill

11-24-2008, 01:46 PM

One round at each course on the shortest day of the year? Are you sure we can get done before dark?

I am playing up into Advanced, as most of the "advanced" players in this state. Since most of us are rated below 935, offering a setup different for the top ams gives us a choice. There are only a handful that must play advanced, if we are uncomfortable with that we can play an easier layout in Intermediate(the division we belong in). While most of the pros would love my money in the purse, those that had to play with me the first round would probably get frustrated watching my weak game. If you have to play with me in Open the second round, that is your own fault for playing so poorly. I would play Open if it did not cost me $20-$30 more per event. Who are these ams hurting when we play the same setup as the pros?

I am coming to play any way you set it up. I have my official's card and I have TD a tournament or 12 the last couple years.

ChrisP.

11-24-2008, 01:57 PM

One round at each course on the shortest day of the year? Are you sure we can get done before dark?

Thanks Bill! Nope. I'm not sure, but I'd sure like to find out! I thought we would be pushing it a little at the Autumn Open teeing off at 10 AM but we finished with plenty of daylight on Saturday. We'll Tee off at 9AM at GW and provide pizza and drinks for lunch. I'm not certain, but I think it can be done. And officially the shortest day of the year is December 21st, my birthday and the first day of Winter - The "Winter Solstice".

Justin L

11-24-2008, 02:10 PM

I thought we would be pushing it a little at the Autumn Open teeing off at 10 AM but we finished with plenty of daylight on Saturday.

You also have to take into account that we had threesomes on both rounds and both were at the faster playing GW. Last years Christmas Classic had 81(! (http://pdga.com/event?TournID=7241)) players which means foursomes are likely.

I think both course can be done, but it will be tight. I would do GW for the second round so you won't have to deal with the people finishing in the canopy darkness of 1,2,3,17,18 at Trussville.

i2rt

11-24-2008, 02:12 PM

We will go back to the original plan and play one round at each course.

Good choice for everyone.
I definately/maybe/should/want to be there.:D
I will have the truck cleared out if anyone wants a ride up to T'ville for the morning round.

ChrisP.

11-24-2008, 02:43 PM

There is more light in the GW parking lot at dusk.

Tim k

11-24-2008, 03:53 PM

i would also suggest playing Civitan first then GW

drdisc

11-24-2008, 05:11 PM

selwonk nitsuj

11-24-2008, 05:20 PM

That sounds like the best idea if people definately want to play a round at Civitan. I need a little payback there anyways!! If that is the final decision, will the layout be the same as it was during a.o.?

selwonk nitsuj

11-25-2008, 01:52 AM

I have to say that i agree with Tom's points. You somewhat put the whole tournament at risk changing spots in the middle of the day. Safety should be the ultimate goal for sure. (just opinion) :) :) :)

bobsatter

11-25-2008, 07:56 AM

First off, Thanks to Chris for continuing the CC tradition!

Like TK and Tiger said most Pros should have the shot to keep it inbounds/ out of the Fire Station. If an AM wants to compare his score then play it in a casual round. I always hear the same points made and the same people making them. Like Jebb said, step up and run one if you want to have a say so. Last I checked the P in PDGA stands for pro and this is a pdga event so, I think they should be catered to a little more, not everything but some.

Good Luck and stay warm up there!

Happy Holidays

"Tiger"

11-25-2008, 08:41 AM

Many Am's like to play the same pads so they can compare themselves with the Pros.
Changing venues is not necessary and provides more drive time, chance of bad road experience, tight lunch schedule and no control of what might be waiting for you at the second venue. If you remain in one spot , you have some modicum of control. Also, it gives players a chance to correct their mistakes from the first to the second round.
As for what kind of good players are in the Pros, just look at the scores from the last few events. Go from high to low. Now, try to figure out which ones have the best control of their shots. Why temp Firestation Fate if you don't have to? Remember why #1 at Trussville had to be moved? The Firestation Fiasco was much , much worse.

To your first point, sorry but thats a crappy reason to have players play the same tee pads. When you play in a ball golf event you play from your designated tees. If you want to compare yourself to the pros then you simply play in the pro division and risk coming in last and realizing you're not where you thought you were or maybe you're better than you thought. If you want an idea of how you would compete practice from the pro layout and then ask a pro what they shoot. When you're shooting over par and they're shooting 10 under maybe that should be reason enough to tell you why you're not playing from the same tees.

As for the firestation, I wasn't around during this initial incident but I'm having a hard time understanding how a pro, not an am, could throw into the firestation. I am in no way advocating every division play from that tee pad. A pro player, someone ranked usually at least around 950 should be able to easily throw the 115 feet needed to get beyond the firestation with no problem. Just like the original hole 1 at trussville, I don't know of a single pro who ever landed in that parking lot or came close to it (unless they hit a tree beyond it and rolled back). Its the ams whose shots are going all over the place. You can't punish players who have control of their shots because a couple don't. If you look at the scores from last week there were a couple non-pro's playing in the pro division, not to mention there were some very tight OB lines out there which lead to higher scores.
Basically the point is that in casual play no, I don't think that should be a "normal" tee pad, but for tournament play when only the top division is playing from that pad it really shouldn't be an issue. As Bob said sometimes you need to cater to pros because 99% of the time we cater to ams. We're asking for 3 holes to be altered just for our division.

Rondpitt

11-25-2008, 09:26 AM

I'll keep this simple. An agreement was made to pull the tee pad from old long 4 and to not use it again.

I still hold resentment about that pad ever being pulled. It was a great risk/reward shot. Kudos to Joe for the original design. I stand by the fact that it in design terms - it was a reasonably safe shot.

That said - - I recommend honoring the agreement. I trust Chris to find plenty of other places at GW or Tville to challenge any and all.

Thanks,
Ron

drdisc

11-25-2008, 04:59 PM

It may be a crappy reason, but it's true. As for the Firestation tee, why temp fate? Big hyzer, big wind, crash on car. The end.

Tim k

11-25-2008, 06:14 PM

like i said before, ANY HALF ASS PRO SHOULDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT SHOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! JEEEZ

Hilltopper

11-25-2008, 07:41 PM

Interesting story: While setting up 16, 17, and 18 at Hartselle. I remarked to a pro that was helping me that I was worried about people throwing into the baseball field by 16. He laughed and said, "Nobody is going to do that!" Fast forward to when we put the basket in. That same pro grip locked his first shot and landed in center field. OOPS! Point is, everyone grip locks sometimes, even Climo.

Josh

Jebb

11-25-2008, 09:09 PM

Plus you can't stop half-ass ams from playing pro either ;)

I keed, I keed!

drdisc

11-25-2008, 10:44 PM

You never know when a bad throw is going to happen. It happens to everyone sometime.

ChrisP.

11-26-2008, 12:18 AM

The reason I was thinking of playing GW first is because of the casual players. They would be all over GW on Saturday afternoon but non-existent at 9:00AM.

Only 1 or 2 people are ever out on the Trussville course at any time.

bobsatter

11-26-2008, 08:07 AM

You never know when a bad throw is going to happen. It happens to everyone sometime.

I do not recall seeing anyone throw in there! Not even an am. Ron, who made such an agreement? I remember the firemen out there busting up the tee pad once but I maybe confused if was the real long one as I thought that one was just a natural tee pad?????

You could still move it back to one of sixes placements to increase the difficulty:cool:

Josh, one day Tom N. will figure it out??? lol was it him???
You guys are lucky that you have this problem. Jax is muuuuch larger then Bham and we only have one event per year:(

Have fun!

ChrisP.

11-26-2008, 11:18 AM

Looks like some players that were good boys this year will get their favorite pin positions for Christmas!

1. C
2. B
3. A
4. B
5. B
6. B
7. B
8. B
9. B
10. B
11. C
12. B
13. C
14. A
15. B - but C if bridge is not in yet.
16. B
17. B
18. C

Hilltopper

11-26-2008, 12:39 PM

Josh, one day Tom N. will figure it out??? lol was it him???

Have fun!

Nope, but you're close. He's a lefty. I believe he has won a pro division at a Hartselle tournament.

Josh

drdisc

11-26-2008, 05:13 PM

Chris , you are right about the afternoon players at GW.
Thanks to Justin K. for moving all the pole holes today.
TK, some AM's want to play Pro in the hope that they get to play a round with you!

"Tiger"

11-26-2008, 07:45 PM

C
TK, some AM's want to play Pro in the hope that they get to play a round with you!

Thats the equivalent of giving every kid who plays on the team a trophy. The kid who picks roses in the field doesn't deserve the same praise as the one who wins the game... period. If you want to play a round with a pro just ask, we don't bite. If you ask me it wouldn't be a bad idea put a minimum to enter pro division. If you don't reach a certain level you shouldn't be allowed to play (thats not to say if you reach that level you should be forced to play pro). But thats just me... bring on the arguments against me :cool:

drdisc

11-26-2008, 10:36 PM

My bad, it's actually called the "Open" division. Open to all.

i2rt

11-27-2008, 09:25 AM

If you want to play a round with a pro just ask, we don't bite. If you ask me it wouldn't be a bad idea put a minimum to enter pro division. If you don't reach a certain level you shouldn't be allowed to play (thats not to say if you reach that level you should be forced to play pro). But thats just me... bring on the arguments against me :cool:

I'll start.:D

Now we are going for the elite golf tournament. I think the PDGA already has that covered with the NT.:rolleyes:

Are you worried that one of the Ams is going to step up to Open and beat some of you guys? It happened at the last tournament. We had no local pros in the top 5 after 2 rounds at GW. BUT we did have an Am player in 6th. If all of these local Open players are so good, why can't they beat the out of towners...or the Ams?:confused:

You want an exclusive tournament that test your skill and tournament toughness then lets have the one that we have been talking about at the course. No entry fees but every time you go OB or don't par you add $10 to the kitty. So if you went OB on #5 and then got a double bogey you would owe the pot $30. At the end, the winner gets the whole kitty.

Any of you big guns interested?:D

drdisc

11-27-2008, 04:58 PM

I would play, but my gun is not big enough!

james blanchard

11-27-2008, 05:47 PM

No Tom, maybe not big enough. But i do not think you will be paying 30 on hole 5, or any for that matter. Taking it easy, taking the 3

Tim k

11-27-2008, 07:00 PM

count me in!

twan2420

11-29-2008, 09:41 AM

Chris you may want to change the round info on the flyers

james blanchard

11-29-2008, 12:36 PM

That would be a must watch round of golf. When are you pro's going to get that going.

"Tiger"

11-29-2008, 12:45 PM

selwonk nitsuj

11-29-2008, 10:20 PM

i'll give you openers a brake and play advanced :):)

i2rt

11-30-2008, 08:31 AM

As long as its not a cold wet day I'm in ;)

By the way, would this be winner take all since there's no entry fee and while I'm sure there will be bogeys and OBs, probably not a significant amount to make a huge pot.

It will be winner take all. The intention would be to make the course hard enough to satisfy the pros. All long positions and lots of OB including all sidewalks. Sort of a Golden George with the players paying for bad shots.

james blanchard

11-30-2008, 08:37 AM

That's awesome, i imagine their would be a good number that would be down for this. Of course now we are in cooler weather. i will be glad to accomidate the pros that show and volunteer the hands needed to put the course in a gold set up.

Jebb

12-02-2008, 12:04 AM

Chris, first post in this thread and the flyer still show two rounds of 18 at GW.

What is the 'concrete' info at this point? ('tee'-minus 10 days)

ChrisP.

12-02-2008, 08:21 AM

Even though I would like Trussville involved, I think two rounds at GW is going to be the best format to please the most people, myself included from a management standpoint. So the posted info is correct.

Jebb

12-02-2008, 08:27 AM

Thanks.

Next question - where is the time info for registration, player's meeting, etc posted?

ChrisP.

12-03-2008, 08:19 AM

http://www.eatsleepdisc.com/tournament_details.php?t_id=50

Jebb

12-03-2008, 10:16 AM

danke :)

ChrisP.

12-03-2008, 12:16 PM

Thank you for updating the front page!

Jebb

12-03-2008, 12:30 PM

I believe that was Justin :)

Tim k

12-03-2008, 04:06 PM

Chris,
Why do you have 1, 3 and 17 in the CHEESEY positions and then possably 15

Come on man, you can do better than that.

drdisc

12-03-2008, 06:48 PM

Maybe it is to help the tourney run faster and give the majority of Am players more shots at birdies? You Pros will make up for them on long 5 , 14 and 16. I predict that you guys will be shooting 8-10 under, if the weather is decent.

"Tiger"

12-03-2008, 07:08 PM

Unless he makes some adjustments (alternate tee pads on a few holes and using the long baskets), I think everyone is playing 5 and 13 to their short spots. That includes 5. And yeah 14 and 16 are long, but 1,2,3,4,6,8,13,17 are all super short ;). TK, unfortunately this event is just am friendly and only a week and a half out we'll probably just have to deal with it or not play. I feel this discussion is one that we (pros) will never win because we make up far fewer players in the long haul, especially at GW considering only myself, Marshall, Tom and Bill consider ourselves pros of those who routinely play the course. And Bill and Tom advocate almost exclusively for ams. We're just SOL.

Tim k

12-03-2008, 08:37 PM

"Tiger"

12-03-2008, 09:14 PM

Why does it always have to be about making birdies?

I don't think time is a problem whith having both rounds on the same course.
Your gonna have to do better than that tom to make me think otherwise.

You know what? i think it's time to add some Am pads at GW!

You know what he's gonna say "we had them". Trust me, this is a losing battle. The best thing we can do is lobby to extend some tee pads during tournaments for pros (obviously I don't think we'll be getting permanent pads in the ground at GW... too many fairly valid reasons for that to happen). Holes 1, 3, 4, 7, 10, 14, and 16 already have fairly well established pro pads. I've added some for 5, 8, and 13, and then lets not forget holes 5 and 13 now have permanent long baskets and 9 can be played to the practice basket. Though I wholeheartedly agree, the "birdie" excuse needs to stop being made, as well as the "time" excuse. They're not logical in COMPETITION. In a casual round feel free to put everything as short as possible and encourage people to play 24 holes in 45 minutes. Unless the name of your tournament is "speed golf" don't complain about time.

drdisc

12-03-2008, 10:07 PM

We tried to put in Am cement tee pads years ago. The answer was no.
Why don't you guys put together a Pro Only event. Set the course up as hard as you like.
Just do it. I'll help.

Tim k

12-03-2008, 11:15 PM

Who says the Am pads have to be cement, the Am pads at trussville aren't cement and they are played all the time, plus i've played plenty of courses that don't have any cement tee pads at all.

Whats your next excuse?

ChrisP.

12-03-2008, 11:21 PM

Hey now, I didn't make the pin positions, I just am using them because they're there. If they're that bad, they should be pulled out of the ground or never should have been installed. The reason these positions were chosen is because they have had the least play in competition throughout this past year. Just trying to make sure they don't feel left out. ;-)

I say just have one hole position and make Pro Pads & Am Pads ....that way I don't have to hear about it come tournament time......and I don't have to "decide" on a layout.

"Tiger"

12-03-2008, 11:27 PM

I say just have one hole position and make Pro Pads & Am Pads ....that way I don't have to hear about it come tournament time......and I don't have to "decide" on a layout.

I definately agree with that. I like the idea of just having one pin placement per hole (again, personal preference) or maybe two that are essentially the same distance but maybe a hyzer here, versus an anhyzer there. And then just have Am pads, Pro pads, and if you wanted to add junior pads for those really long holes go for it.

Tim k

12-03-2008, 11:33 PM

then why not put 15 to the right long position, you never ever see that placement being used.

"Tiger"

12-03-2008, 11:49 PM

then why not put 15 to the right long position, you never ever see that placement being used.

Not that I agree with it, but for the same reason we don't use 16 long ever... danger. People tend to ignore mando signs. They throw right over 14s tee pad. Oh... and also cause its really tough and takes skill to play :cool:

I've got an even better idea to solve the entire fiasco... lets find a certain someone or someones who have old baskets around and put permanent long pins on some of the holes in question. Any takers?

ChrisP.

12-04-2008, 08:21 AM

then why not put 15 to the right long position, you never ever see that placement being used.

Actually, that is the position I picked for the event if the bridge was not in. Have they put the bridge in yet? We are playing 16 long (left). They may not have been moved yet.

drdisc

12-04-2008, 10:37 AM

16 is long left. 15 is long straight. That is the way they read it before they moved them.
BTW, they just poured a lot of that last path between 13 and 14. There is a lot of mud there right now. They also poured the new bridge. It should be open this weekend.
Tiger is right about the dangers of 15 long right. There are just not enough strong armed skilled players to make that shot. It is great for a strong lefty or sidearm throw. Factor in a 4some walking around the corner with a really hard, bad , turnover and the danger increases. Granted, it is a great Pro type of hole. I like it. But, for a public park with a 90% AM player base, it is a potential trouble spot.

ChrisP.

12-04-2008, 10:46 AM

The attached document is how I picked the pin positions...these are the positions that have been played the least throughout this last year.

Highlighted in Yellow

"Tiger"

12-04-2008, 12:56 PM

But, for a public park with a 90% AM player base, it is a potential trouble spot.

Clearly this talk isn't about day to day pin placements. Like I mentioned before there aren't a lot of pros playing at GW on a given day. I know I don't even play the traditional setup 70% of the time I'm out there so I don't really care where you put the pins for casual rounds. This discussion is about tournament setups.

25322

12-04-2008, 01:02 PM

I find it interesting that only 3-4 holes does it make much of a difference to overall scores according to your statistics.

I play whatever ya set it up to...I prefer to play the same course to give myself more data when analyzing my game to see where to improve though :) But if the pro's feel the need to be special I'll save a seat at the back of the short bus :P

-David

drdisc

12-04-2008, 02:20 PM

Pro and Am tee pads are great. When it comes time to decide on how to spend the money it looks something like this. Extra sleeves $25.00 each. Extra tee pads $100 each.
There is a great course near Madison WI. They have two tee pads and 3 pin placements on every hole. The grass is cut links style, with a low and high cut on the edge of the fairways. This place is beautiful. It is also in a pay to enter park. Total cost of the course $20,000.
BTW, we had dirt tee pads with tee signs at GW. The ground surface was so bad , players would not use them. We still have the tee posts. Not an excuse, just a fact.

Marc D

12-05-2008, 09:23 AM

I find it interesting that only 3-4 holes does it make much of a difference to overall scores according to your statistics.

I attached some of the course statistics for the Xmas Classic setup below. I ran the Pro Division scores (page 2) showing each pin position for each hole & the difference in the averages for the 2 shortest positions on holes 1, 3, 4, & 13 are not that significant, so I don't think it will change the overall average score for a round.

The setup actually plays a slight bit harder than the average setup for the course, though it is mostly due to 5 & 14 long. (pages 4 & 5)

I think it's a good thing to play some different positions for tournaments, whether they be longer & shorter ones, after all, variety is the spice of life !

selwonk nitsuj

12-05-2008, 09:47 AM

When i moved the positions i was unable to get 7's lock to turn. This i intend to fix today hopefully. It will be moved long(straight back). 5 needs to be moved to middle behind the tree to get it out of the way for the tourney. It might be a good idea to take it to a locals house temp. And then there is 16 that either needs to go left or right. The workers seemed to be making a lot of progress on wed so i assume the bridge will be in use by next weekend. Is the definate decision left(island) in that case Chris??

There also might be a little bit of caos with 10 and 18. The flight paths pretty much interweeve(sp?). People teeing on ten will also have to throw over peoples heads putting on 18. COuld slow things down a lot. Let me know if you want those to stay where they are. (or call and we can talk)

ChrisP.

12-05-2008, 11:48 AM

I think you mean 15, instead of 16 correct? Yes on the island if the bridge is in. GOOD CALL on 10 & 18. Move 10 to the short position to fix that situation.

Maybe we can put 5's extra target at Jebb's or Eartha's?

i2rt

12-05-2008, 04:44 PM

7 is moved.

Bridge is poured.
Where do U want 15?

drdisc

12-05-2008, 05:25 PM

We can just put a bag over #5 in the middle right position for Sat.
The new bridge is nice and open. Shall we move 15 back to the island?

Tim k

12-05-2008, 06:52 PM

please, not the island hole, the position is over used!

drdisc

12-05-2008, 10:14 PM

Maybe it is over used because it is the favorite position. I have heard out of towners call it the "signature hole".

"Tiger"

12-05-2008, 10:59 PM

Maybe it is over used because it is the favorite position. I have heard out of towners call it the "signature hole".

simple solution. Just pull all the placements we don't use. 16 long... gone, 15 to the right and straight... gone. Scratch the layouts I came up with since we can't seem to actually use them anyway. 9's new spot and the long one... get rid of em. 7 long, gone. 3 long, 5 middle, 14 long, 17 long... am I missing any. If nothing else we'd have some sleeves to make even shorter holes. I've always felt 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 16 needed really short placements.

Jebb

12-06-2008, 01:25 AM

holy cow at all the armchair complaining.

again, run a tourney how you see fit.

i2rt

12-06-2008, 07:32 AM

simple solution. Just pull all the placements we don't use. 16 long... gone, 15 to the right and straight... gone. Scratch the layouts I came up with since we can't seem to actually use them anyway. 9's new spot and the long one... get rid of em. 7 long, gone. 3 long, 5 middle, 14 long, 17 long... am I missing any. If nothing else we'd have some sleeves to make even shorter holes. I've always felt 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, and 16 needed really short placements.

Whah, Whah, Whah.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

drdisc

12-06-2008, 07:41 AM

We will get back to the A, B and C set ups, as soon as we can go a month or two without an event, The setups are well thought out and work just fine..
We could use some shorter holes for kids and beginners. Good idea. Cheaper than tee pads!

Tim k

12-06-2008, 10:36 AM

How about a "D" setup where everything is in the longest positions for the "minority Pro players"? That would be nice.

"Tiger"

12-06-2008, 11:41 AM

How about a "D" setup where everything is in the longest positions for the "minority Pro players"? That would be nice.

That'll never happen for casual play. I purposefully never added signs for "all long" or "all short" because if I did I know for a fact things will be "all short" even more so than they already are. I didn't want the "winter setup" to ever be used again because its just not fair to EVERYONE that plays the course. Likewise for casual play I don't agree everything SHOULD be long. As much as I advocate for pros I also do the same for ams. Hence my suggestion for shorter tee pads for some of the longer holes (not cemented tee pads, Tom, cause apparently any change you think we're talking about has to involve cement). Just like I have my long courses that most of you see me playing these days (which I plan on making some permanent markers for, maybe gold rocks or something) you could easily mark some short tee pads.

My only problem with the lack of rotation is that immediately following a tournament baskets are very quick to be moved short. If you don't wanna move all the baskets because another event is coming up in 5 weeks that's fine. I would only argue that you not move ANY of the baskets unless you're moving them all for the next tournament. That is NOT what happens. For that reason I "whined" about baskets not being moved regularly and getting rid of the "layouts" all together.

drdisc

12-06-2008, 05:21 PM

The last two target moves have been for the next tourney. Like I said, earlier, without cement, the Ams will not play from "natural" tee pads. If you like, look into the bushes to the left of the log by 11 and you will see the Am tee signs that we pulled because no one used them. Players want a nice, smooth , safe tee area.

i2rt

12-06-2008, 06:45 PM

The short "Winter" setup is a good idea for the few weeks while school is out so that people can get in a quick round with the short days.
The long pins are always there on 5 and 13 along with Tigers "pro" tees to add difficulty for those that feel the need.

Adding a D (Destroyer:D) layout would be a great idea.
With the short positions on 5 and 13 players can get in a reasonable round and we get to see what GW is really made of. It is not the kind of layout you would want to use during winter hours but as soon as the time changes we could use it as a good spring warmup.

With the amount of rain we have been getting I would question turf tees for the Classic. If anything move a few pins during lunch or let ams plays the two short pins.

MAJ DG

12-06-2008, 09:00 PM

WOW, I must have made a serious typo and accidentally logged into the SN webpage. :eek:

As our esteemed VP has said, (paraphrased), "If you don't like the TD's decisions, either 1) don't enter the tournament, or 2) run your own." Or both, or neither.

Seriously, at some point (and I'm not goint to name any names), "Constructive Comments" become whining. Continued criticism in an open forum is inappropriate and private discussions should be initiated with the TD.

That being said, I would like to thank ChrisP, in advance, for supporting disc golf in general and discgolfbirmingham specifically and providing us the opportunity to compete in sanctioned and well-organized, fun tournaments.

Sadly, I will have to once again miss a local tournament, due to army obligations. I would give ANYTHING to play ANY layout next weekend. If you decide to play in the CC, have fun; and if you decide not to play in the CC, have fun. That's what its all about anyway, ain't it?

drdisc

12-06-2008, 10:49 PM

Yep, just like the SN credo,"it's all about the fun"!

bazkitcase5

12-08-2008, 10:39 PM

I guess being we are going with the easier George Ward course, it would be too late to ask if we could play all 24 holes? I wouldn't think those extra short holes would cause any problems with finishing before dark

ChrisP.

12-09-2008, 10:39 AM

It's not all short. There's 5 long, 7 long, 14 long, 16 long and then some. There won't be enough time for all 24.

I'm pumped....the weather forecast (http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/USAL0054?from=36hr_fcst10DayLink_undeclared) looks nice.

Almost in the 60's!!

Glen Iris Southpaw

12-10-2008, 07:12 AM

I agree with richard, thanks chris for all you do. No one is gonna get everything they want. Lets have fun and if Im not mistaken is this not about raising some canned food for the homeless.

ChrisP.

12-10-2008, 08:24 AM

That's the Ice Bowl and it will be at the end of Jan or beginning of Feb. ;)

Thanks for the props! Don't worry big arms & tough course lovers.......your event is coming.

Glen Iris Southpaw

12-10-2008, 10:15 PM

Btw Josh, Chris im sure your out there looking...are marla and or karen coming down. Was hoping to get some kind of group up for the day.

ChrisP.

12-11-2008, 08:16 AM

ChrisJ. and Karen are a NO GO...they have Nashville Predators tickets!;)

ChrisP.

12-12-2008, 09:45 AM

There's been alot of people calling and saying they're going to be here to sign up in the morning. Secure your spot by signing up online (http://www.sdsproshop.com/pd-christmas-classic.cfm). Late registration begins at 7:30 AM and CLOSES @ 8:45 AM.

See you all in the morning at GW!

selwonk nitsuj

12-12-2008, 10:22 AM

Sign me up for intermediate. :) Also let me know where you want 15 so i can get it moved.

Ken

12-12-2008, 03:40 PM

Chris,

Chris Martin accidentaly signed up for Rec instead of Novice. He will confirm the change with you in the morning but I thought I would give you a heads up. Trust me, he is not very good (almost as bad as me) and this is his first tournament :D

i2rt

12-13-2008, 06:56 PM

Damn that was fun.:)

Congrats to all the winners...even to the biggest bagger of all...JK who shot lights out in the INT division.

I will get the pics up as quick as I can.

Ken

12-14-2008, 12:02 PM

Chris and Carrie,

Thanks for an awesome event from me, Jesse (1st loser) Shockley, Tom (Not DFL) Blanks and Chris (DFL) Martin.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!
Ken (DFL in the CC'07 to 1st place in CC'08) McKinney

ChrisP.

12-14-2008, 12:02 PM

Thanks to all the players who came out to support Solstice & The Christmas Classic!! We really appreciate you being able to come out to Birmingham!

Once again, our local club and it's members make it worth all of the work to put on an event. BIG THANKS to Tom Monroe & Justin Knowles & others who helped prep the course. Bill Thornton for being a great friend to all and providing the awesome breakfast foods and helping us out with laptops and loading the van and Jeff Waters & Greg Elrod for helping us loading da Odyssey after it was all said and done! Special Thanks to Marc Dobson with the data sorting & compiling and number crunching!!

"Hey man, can I get those scorecards?";)

Congrats to all the winners!
Randy Fortenberry - Open
Kevin Reilly - Advanced
Justin Knowles - Intermediate
Tim Waldrup - Recreational
Ken McKinney - Novice
LeAnne Owen - Int. Women

We hope you can all make it out for the T-Town Winter Warm-Up on Jan. 24th, 2009!
The inaugural event for the 2009 Yellowhammer State Tour & Points Series!

Here's the link for the XMas Classic results!
http://www.pdga.com/tournament-results?TournID=8346&year=2008&include_ratings=1#Open